TIME: Almanac 1995

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<text id=90TT3061> <title> Nov. 12, 1990: Interview:Mark MathaBane </title> <history> TIME--The Weekly Newsmagazine--1990 Nov. 12, 1990 Ready For War </history> <article> <source>Time Magazine</source> <hdr> INTERVIEW, Page 16 Taking the Measure of American Racism </hdr> <body> South African-born Mark Matha Bane, author of Kaffir Boy in America, compares two forms of apartheid--here and there By Bruce W. Nelan and Mark Matha Bane (Mark Mathabane) Q. "Do you think human beings are inherently racist?" A. Having lived in South Africa and the U.S., I think that racism will always exist. For one reason or another, there will always be people who are driven by fear, who deny the humanity of others. In South Africa, the problem is not so much the white people as it is apartheid. Apartheid has codified racism as a means to preserve its own power. Q. Is it the same in both countries? A. When I came to the U.S. in 1978, I believed that America had long since resolved its racial problems, that blacks were equal citizens. In many ways, I found that to be true. The U.S. seemed to be a hundred years ahead of South Africa. Then I discovered, to my horror, that not much had changed in people's hearts. White people's attitudes toward blacks have changed very little since the days of lynchings. Without that change, laws are relatively impotent. In many towns, there is a black world and a white world. I told my friends that I did not escape from the bondage of apartheid to end up segregated in America. Q. What kind of segregation are you referring to? A. One of the most segregated hours in America is 11 a.m. on Sunday. This was most revealing to me. If people who are motivated by the noble precepts of Christianity cannot bring themselves to accept the equality of people of another race by joining in worship with them, then how can they feel on the other days of the week? What was really shocking was discovering that the black world in America resembled the world I had left, the townships of South Africa--the poor buildings, the bad roads, the hopelessness, the rage, the frustration on the faces of the black boys and girls I met. These were the same emotions I felt when I was fighting for my life under apartheid. Everyone in this country is an accomplice to what is happening in the black ghettos of America. Q. What do you see happening in the ghettos? A. I see we are dying in many of those places. Young people are growing up in homes where family life is unknown. For me, in South Africa, family was the citadel, the center that kept me alive. Also, what does this society hold up for its young people as the values to emulate? On television and in real life you extol materialism, villains and people who circumvent the law and achieve success by cheating and lying. Finally, the stereotypes. My God, 90% of white South Africans go through a lifetime without entering a black township! I came to New York City, where I lived for a time, and found that a majority of white Americans seldom set foot in a ghetto. They know nothing about the real life of black people. They react to what they see on television. I know because that is the way they reacted to me. Q. You are now living in North Carolina. Do you encounter any hostility here? A. No. I asked myself why people did not react to me the way the Northerners did. I found that in places in the South where change has occurred, it has been genuine. Many white people go out of their way not to be seen as racists, not to give a racial connotation to any situation. It does not surprise me that more and more blacks are moving back south. Compare Birmingham with Boston, for example. Q. And do you think the white Afrikaners in South Africa can fundamentally change their attitudes toward black people? A. On many levels I do. The Afrikaner is at heart an African. He knows that the land must be shared somehow. We must play a reassuring role, embracing the Afrikaners in spite of the hideous past. If we do not do that, I think they would rather die fighting than compromise. Many of the younger generation of whites can come to accept the equality of black people and respect them. Q. In your lectures on college campuses, what kind of advice do you give black students? A. I tell them: don't fool yourself into believing that simple mediocrity will earn you a fair share. You must remember that you are judged by standards set by the white majority. I also tell them not to give in to the peer pressure in the black community, where success is equated with "trying to be white." A young black can be pressured into not doing well because getting good grades is perceived as trying to be white. Q. Why is that? A. The heritage of slavery has left many young blacks with the feeling that they do not measure up. They set their own standards and say, judge me by my standards. While it takes energy and talent to be a rebel, it is time for the black leadership in this country to set the example for these young people by showing them you can succeed in America in spite of racism. Q. Don't many of them feel their schools are so inferior that there is no point in attending? A. A little education is better than none. Despite the inferiority of Bantu education in South Africa, I learned certain positive things. I learned discipline and responsibility, to delay gratification. Above all, I learned that knowledge can overcome oppression. I ask young black people what they believe about themselves, and they tell me in a very sad way that black people are not as good as whites. The worst disease of black youth in the ghetto is defeatism. Given the pervasiveness of intolerance and prejudice in this country, I cannot believe there will ever be a clear path for minority children to follow, free of obstacles and racism. There won't be. But I don't tell them to do the impossible. I tell them what I have done. Q. Didn't you also feel despair when you were growing up in a poverty-stricken South African township? A. There was a time when I thought that if life meant unending suffering and pain, there was no use living. At 10 years old, I contemplated suicide. What kept me going was my discovery of books. In the world of books I could travel around the world, go to the moon, do great things. That made it worthwhile to live another day. Q. How did you get interested in books? A. My mother's stories planted the seed. Yet she was illiterate. So you cannot tell me that a parent must be educated in order to impress this upon a child. A parent who is aware of his or her responsibility will do everything to insure that the child will at least have a fighting chance. Q. So you believe that education is the catalyst for positive changes? A. Undoubtedly. With education you are made to accept the universality of human beings. You can see yourself in other people. But the American educational system needs a total overhaul, a rearrangement of priorities. We must begin to put discipline and respect back in our schools. I am appalled at the disrespect that many kids have for the educational process, let alone the poor teachers. We also need to put an end to apartheid on high school and college campuses. Whites sit over here, blacks over there, and nobody communicates. How can we expect destructive attitudes not to persist when we talk about one another but never talk to one another? Q. At many universities, blacks and other minorities argue that the curriculum is focused on the ideas of white males and that other viewpoints should be introduced. Do you agree? A. When we are champions for increasing black studies, we must not forget that we are equally obligated to learn about the great ideas and the great books of Western civilization. The idea that this is oppressive cultural imperialism is wrong--as long as we remember white students' responsibility to learn about other cultures. In Europe and Africa people are fluent in three or four languages; you come to America and find that people don't even speak English fluently. Q. When blacks denounce whites and reject their values, are they expressing anger or bigotry? A. If you refuse to recognize that not all whites are racist, why should you expect the white world to differentiate individual blacks from the stereotype? When I find this among reasonable black people, I think it is bigotry and call it bigotry. Q. Have you encountered stereotyping yourself? A. When I came to the U.S., one of the hardest things for me to cope with was the way black Americans perceived me as an African. People judged me as somehow not worthy because I was not ashamed to admit that my parents were illiterate, that I grew up in a shack without running water or electricity, slept on a piece of cardboard. I did not have the material success that gave people status and identity. Q. Do you think American welfare programs meet the needs of the urban poor? A. Welfare is necessary in every society, but a problem arises when you encourage able-bodied men and women to believe that they can get something for nothing. The real question is how to make people the active agents in their own lives. In enclaves that belong to the Irish, to Italians, to Jews, to Poles, Koreans, Vietnamese, these communities are more or less self-sustaining. The money they earn provides jobs and development in the community. There is one conspicuous exception: the black community. I think it's because we have been taught to distrust ourselves. Once blacks have made it, they feel they don't have any responsibility for those who have not. Q. Can politics provide a route to significant improvements for blacks? A. Black leaders have to get into the habit of telling the truth like it is, rather than flattering people for votes and keeping them away from painful truths, telling them that all the problems lie over there, in racism. It is almost a universal belief among black people that there is a conspiracy by white society against blacks, that racism is practiced by all whites because it is inherent in their nature. I say, let me indulge my worst fears but let me do something constructive. It's time we stopped just enduring and began prospering. </body> </article> </text>